@cfrank @Toby-Pereira
Thx for the tag assist. I live I learn!
I pray to the universal equalness of all people living today that we, somehow, achieve heaven on earth where life is good and that the future is promising. I pray that wars, poverty, climate destruction, depression, resignation are all things of the past. I make this prayer to god (as defined above) and that we realize our full human potential quickly and completely with no offsetting quid pro quo or "bad twist ending theater" to "balance out" this prayer. Amen.
That's how I pray. For a lot of stuff. To me, the one truism is the equaleness of all people. This one simple, self-evident fact, is the fuel that, with an appropriate efficient engine, can get us to where we all want to be.
So how do we funnel our equalness, all 8 billion's worth, into running this shit show?
The two burning questions 1) can we do it? Is there some way to harness the whim of all people, without anyone playing god and predetermining a rule book that can and will be exploited to nefarious ends? and 2) should we do it? If we have a machine that fits the bill, would it be a good idea to turn it on?
So anyhow, I apologize for not directly responding to your notes. The Federalist Papers, Constitution Convention, Pre-amble etc. are of great interest to me. I'm just trying to do something that is very different that I think will really help. Kind of, sort of, like Chastain's NASCAR wall ride. Hilarious btw if you haven't seen it!
As always, if at anytime I cross your perceived line of sanity, I apologize and of course don't expect a response.
Latest posts made by mosbrooker
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RE: What would a perfect voting system look like?
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RE: What would a perfect voting system look like?
For argument's sake lets say I'm wrong: It's a bad idea to give everyone a continuous vote, leaders should never pick their successors etc.
How much do we negotiate away Democracy (where all people have an equal say all the time)? Do we give each state 2 senators to throttle the people of the cities? Do we have a toxic "election season" where all money is focused on one single day? Who are these two candidates we choose from? It seems like we have a choice but who made the choice of who we choose between?
The big issue to me is China/India. Let's say it: they have a lot of people. But, they are people before they are citizens of a national syndicate.
A minority not letting all the people have a voice is kind of like apartheid South Africa.
Just typing to myself here... -
RE: What would a perfect voting system look like?
I think that election theorists try to ensure that a leader is good and decent. One might say that winner-take all states, two senators regardless of population, ranked choice, voting holiday, mandatory voting etc. will do the trick. If not, we can try referendums.
I think the focus instead should be on giving Joe Blow (from Kalamazoo, Abuja or Phnom Penh) the ultimate political power: the decision to say WHEN leadership must change. Make it right for the person and the leader will be a good leader by the people.If this was a board game (Stratego), I would see two phases to make this happen. First is gaining Democracy. Second is the defense of Democracy. Even in a Democracy, someone might stand in Joe’s way of easily voting NO. Maybe someday we will attain the big D but we still need to be vigilant. If even one person, for one moment, can’t vote or if a leader refuses to step down upon simultaneous majority disapproval, then we are right back where we started and fight for D again we will. (Yoda)
Maybe the smoothest way to implement world D is to make it a non-binding “pulse of the people” system. Give every person on the planet a unique ID number (12 digits is more than enough) that they can use to thumbs up/down. (Default is thumbs up). We will see very quickly that impoverished, war town nations are almost unanimously thumbs down as people vote on how things are for them. Imagine a covid-like hotspot world map. Dark red is heavily thumbs down, dark green heavily thumbs up (or neutral).
People do like to know what they are voting on but any seemingly innocuous question like “how are things for you?” can quickly be open for manipulation. So, no qualifier. People will get the idea. At the very least, when Burundi sends out a crimson red SOS from the actual people, it will be duly noted.
IMHO Democracy works with any size population if everyone is included (thus the definition of Democracy). It will work on an island of 25 if there are no other islands. It will work on a planet if neighboring planets are uninhabited. So, yeah, it will work on Earth but not sure about just one nation. If Spain wanted to do this on its own it would be very tricky because of intrinsic interactions with other nations (trade, travel, collaboration etc.)
But 8 billion people? No harder than 25. OK, a bit harder. A few cray super computers and determination to give every person an ID number would be necessary. If banks can keep track of millions of people’s trillions of dollars, to the penny, every second, we can manage a binary vote from a few billion people.
I will sign off by thanking you from my heart for this correspondence. I have been playing this game theory in my head for a long time. Responding is like breathing to me. For however long it lasts, I am grateful. Beyond.
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RE: What would a perfect voting system look like?
I say that the successor is picked by the predecessor b/c I think there is no other way. I mean no other fair, just, and thus legitimate way to pick the new leader. Let’s say you could pick a successor fairly (random is not fair but, sure, random even). ‘A’ is the leader and B is, somehow, the fairly chosen alternative. ‘A’ will spend a lot of time eyeballing B. The relationship will be contentious at the least and openly hostile at the worse.
And all people who are not A or B would have to suck it up and deal with the result of this fighting. Nothing substantial would get done. The island would spiral into a state of disrepair. They wouldn’t even know what to do if a pandemic hit.
On the other hand, if the leader chooses his best buddy, C, then he can go about leading without worry about leadership opposition. However, he will have to worry about the check and balance of not meeting the people’s needs and getting balanced out of office.Weirdly enough, dangers of a one-party system are irrelevant. The only thing that matters is the connection between the people and the leader’s “time’s up” clock.
How about this: A judge picked foreman and 12 jurors sequester to deliberate. A juror says, “let’s just say the guy’s guilty and we can go home.” When the foreman says “No, we’ve got to do this right” 3 necklaces go to the peg. When the foreman decides to abolish lunch, 6 necklaces get hung. He doesn’t reinstate lunch; the 7th necklace is placed, and the foreman taps his buddy for the job. His buddy doesn’t want lunch either but kinda wants to keep being the leader. So, he asks if people would be OK with ½ hour lunch. Necklaces go back on bodies, and he leads on.
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RE: What would a perfect voting system look like?
I can't seem to convince myself that this is a bad idea. Kinda wish I could so I could move on with my life. I greatly thank you for your input. It means the world to me. Please feel free to agree to disagree and I will resume playing solitare.
Just for arguments sake, what would have happened on the Mayflower if someone suggested that yes, Captain Jones can be the boss but every single person gets a continuous approval vote? First, how would it work? Maybe everyone wears a thin necklace to show approval of Jones. To disapprove, a passenger would put her necklace on a hook for all to see. Mr. Story can changes his mind and take the necklace on and off as he likes.
Jones drives his boat and makes proclamations. "All Saints get food, Strangers are now slaves." Immediately more necklaces land on the hook and Jones is replaced by his pick. Everyone gets their necklace back on and Carver will change the new law to keep from being similarly ousted.
Carver could molest all those without necklaces and rule by force but the ease of revolution (lets all post our necklaces at 2pm) would make him... a better leader. Besides, he probably wouldn't hassle bare necked people because his "opponent" is his best friend. No motivation for authoritarian rule.
If I was a passenger and suggested this system I would be thrown overboard. Same if I said women could vote so, in for a penny... -
RE: What would a perfect voting system look like?
Yeah I don't like the idea of a one family rule forever but I can't see how you could chose a more fair successor. In fact I see this as the ultimate compromise in a fair society: John Doe gets to vote, whenever he wants, to oust the leader, in exchange he doesn't get to say who the leader is.
I think this takes into account every real problem facing person and planet today. We can't seem to fix this crumbling restaurant. Not without new management (a just voting/legal structure).
There is a check and balance: directly in the hands of the people. Imagine a leader that is nervous for his job every second! He will quickly come around to making sure his restaurant is top notch. No powerful person wants to loose their job. In a partial or non-democracy he can focus on the rich, dismiss (or worse) the poor and let the restaurant fail.
The constitution is the beginning of law but it is made to be changed. No more 3/5 clause. Freedom of speech is an amendment, an add on.
So I say reduce the constitution to the most vital bits and let law emanate from there. We The People.
To me, the amazing thing is that Democracy exists. It is the light we need. It's really is so simple: I think that's it's beauty.
The fact that every single human is exactly one is the only fuel we need to run our species with happiness forever. No one is the same but no living person is more or less than exactly, precisely one human being.
I know this is a ramble and I hope not a rant. I honestly believe that I see something really really helpful. The devil is in the details so I very much appreciate your input and not outright dismissiveness (which I certainly would understand). -
RE: What would a perfect voting system look like?
A note to anyone reading this. With any system there seems to be two concerns 1)what it looks like and 2) what will happen.
Clearly 2) is a long shot. I ask a favor: that you can focus on what it looks like. For example, if I said the best government would be if everyone wore purple shirts you might ask "what about night time or swimming?" or "what about mauve?"
Unlike shirt color, I think that Democracy (in my definition) is unambiguously clear. Every islander gets a continuous binary vote, the leader resigns if ever over 1/2 are aligned NO, she appoints her successor and votes reset. I think we agree that we don't want some crappy leader. IMHO my definition of democracy assures that if we do, the ship is almost immediately righted. (There I go being defensive about category 2- apologies) -
RE: What would a perfect voting system look like?
I appreciate your detailed response. On my fantasy island, there is no middle man representatives. Just a leader and the people. The check and balance is direct and immediate. People thumbs up or down depending on how things are for them. The leader will delegate managers so she's not doing everything herself. I think a perfect system is if every islander got a binary, continuous vote and the leader reboots if the voting scale simultaneously tips "disapprove."
The servant of the people, not a dictator, constantly looks over her shoulder at the people's whim.
This is about what the people want/need. Every dictator (and non democratic leader) pays the most attention to a tiny, very powerful group (who are usually not good for people/island/planet).
There is a very formal electoral structure in place. One person, one continuous vote, cradle to grave. No ambiguity and no one plays god and makes prior rules (like felons and teens can't vote).
The masses can be swayed most easily by having their basic needs met. Minorities are a majority when they have qualifiable equality. Anyway thanks for reading and responding. Believe me I know how untenable this sounds! But still... -
RE: What would a perfect voting system look like?
Elections are flawed because there is no way to run them fairly. Some are much better than others but is there a best way? The goal of democracy (and the foundation for fairness) is people govern the leader. When? All the time. Who? Everyone. Someone might not like the idea of everyone all the time (my grandmother used to say the "masses are asses") but I have hope in people.
Again, from a game-theory standpoint: The island's inhabitants each hold a continuous binary opinion: agree with the status quo or change please. Nothing comes before the people's connection to the leader. Just yes or no. The votes ebb and flow as a person can change their minds as much as they like. Again no pre-ordained rules between a person and yea/nay to the leader. The leader will try to keep his approval up and sure, he could try the ol' tyranical way but he will soon find that there are too many NOs to play whack a mole. Instead, he will grumble but he will "OK OK give the people security and hope for the future." Like magic, votes start to go his way, he is king of the world, and we all live happily... -
RE: What would a perfect voting system look like?
That's a good point. Mr. Tyrant and his wife could just kick leadership back and forth amongst themselves. But I do believe that they would get tired of people ousting them all the time. One of them might say "what if I tried giving peeps what they want so I have a strong approval rating?" People can change, Mr. Tyrant included. Especially if his actions were guided by the people and not a powerful minority. Again, just election game theory here.