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    Essenzia

    @Essenzia

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    Best posts made by Essenzia

    • RE: STAR vs. Score

      @Keith
      Given these 3 types of ratings (assuming they are the ratings of the 2 frontrunners, after eliminating all the others):
      [0,1] - [2,3] - [4,5]
      STLR normalizes them like this:
      [0,5] - [3.33,5] - [4,5]
      Baldwin normalizes them like this:
      [0,5] - [0,5] - [0,5]

      For me, STLR uses better normalization but I don't think it's the best.
      If a vote like this: [4,5] remain the same in the clash between the two finalists, the voter from the start will be encouraged to downplay the rating of the worst candidate of the 2 (i.e., to vote like this from the start [0,5] ).
      I prefer this normalization in clash between two finalists:

      • if you have a couple [0,0] or [5,5] the vote is irrelevant.
      • if one of the two candidates has a score of 5, the other is put at 0.
      • if one of the two candidates has a score of 0, the other is put at 5.
      • if both candidates have intermediate scores, then STLR normalization applies.

      For simplicity, I call START the STAR that uses this normalization.
      In this way, at the beginning the voter:

      • first assigns 5 to his most favorite candidates and 0 to the most hated ones.
      • then he can feel freer in assigning intermediate scores.

      Such normalization is proposed indirectly in Tragni's method, although in that context it is used to make comparisons between couples.

      posted in Single-winner
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      Essenzia
    • RE: S-TM

      @Jack-Waugh
      Exactly like that.

      I hypothesize that if a voter assigns [best] to a candidate, then he would definitely want the opponent to be at 0 points (respectively, if he assigns [worst] he wants the opponent to be at 5).
      If he uses intermediate scores instead, he can agree to leave them as they are.

      An STLR-style normalization could be done on the intermediate scores, eg: [1,2] becomes [2.5,5] but I think it would complicate the procedure too much.

      posted in New Voting Methods and Variations
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      Essenzia

    Latest posts made by Essenzia

    • RE: S-TM

      @Keith said in S-TM:

      If there was two candidates supported by the largest bloc of about 40% of the voters they would still fight with eachother.

      Yes, but they would still both be supported by that 40% because they both don't want to do things that make them lose that block.
      Positive the fact that they try to have the block bigger and bigger, but if the block is for example "Republican", it will remain "Republican" (as well as the 2 candidates who then end up in the automatic runoff).

      Also, falling back to score is not something I would view as a problem

      The problem is that if you end up in Score Voting then you might as well use Score Voting from the start, which is simpler (but has its downsides).

      posted in New Voting Methods and Variations
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      Essenzia
    • RE: S-TM

      @multi_system_fan
      Yes, there are unresolved tie cases as in any voting method. The important thing is that they are sufficiently rare.
      If 1000 or more voters vote, it is extremely rare that multiple candidates have the same number of [best] or [worst] just as it is extremely rare in AV that multiple candidates have the same number of votes.
      Frequent tie cases to be solved are those caused by condorcet cycles and for those the solution is proposed.

      "The candidate with the highest sum of points wins" is not the method I am proposing. With a similar process, there could be many more min-max strategies.

      @Keith
      The benefits of STLR and STAR fall with the clones, becoming Score Voting. I don't think the added complexity of such methods is worth it in the long run (given that in the long run, political factions would understand this clone problem and exploit it to their advantage).

      posted in New Voting Methods and Variations
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      Essenzia
    • RE: S-TM

      @Jack-Waugh
      I have read KP and partly agree.
      You look for a half way between IRV and AV.

      S-TM instead is an half way to other methods:

      • If everyone in S-TM voted with [worst] and [best], it would become AV.
      • If everyone in S-TM voted with intermediate ratings, it would become Score.
      • Condorcet (pairwise comparisons) to mix AV and Score.
      • in case of tie, all candidates but 2 are eliminated on which the comparison is then made , similar to STAR.
      posted in New Voting Methods and Variations
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      Essenzia
    • RE: S-TM

      @Jack-Waugh
      Condorcet
      Assuming to use tie procedure 2, the worst that can happen in the case of cycles is that some of the few candidates belonging to the cycle receive [worst] instead of intermediate ratings.
      This is if the voter can predict that there will be a cycle and which candidates will belong to it (it's not easy).
      If they don't know which candidates belong in the cycle, then minimizing is very risky because it also remains true that in case of not tie, minimizing to [worst] is senseless.

      Tit-for-tat
      Given these votes:
      A [best] B [3] C [2] D [worst]
      A [worst] B [2] C [3] D [best]
      When it comes to the management of the tie (procedure 1), the 2 candidates with the most [best] are held, so A and C are in tie.
      With tie procedure 2, the 2 candidates with least [worst] are held which are B and C, which however result in tie (if there was only B, I would have to keep B and one between A and C in tie).
      You always end up with a tie (it makes sense), even if there is still an imbalance towards certain candidates (those with intermediate ratings) rather than towards others.
      However, tit-for-tat is not a criterion that I value very much (and I also point out that it only fails in the case of tie, otherwise it's satisfied, unlike FPTP which always fails).

      Score for tie
      If I use Score, I introduce the min and max strategies in case of tie, while with my procedure only one of the 2 strategies can be valid in case of tie.

      I will inquire about KP voting.

      posted in New Voting Methods and Variations
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      Essenzia
    • RE: S-TM

      @Jack-Waugh
      Yes, in practice, whoever is best able to predict the results, the best will be able to exploit this knowledge to his advantage... not to mention that the political factions could spread false information precisely to condition votes.

      I prefer a voting system in which the voter's vote depends as little as possible on the background information (and as much as possible on his interests alone).

      posted in New Voting Methods and Variations
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      Essenzia
    • RE: S-TM

      @Jack-Waugh
      This is evidence:
      if I want to maximize A (loved candidate), I vote:
      A [5] BCDEF [0]
      If I want to minimize F (hated candidate), I vote:
      ABCDE [5] F [0]
      If the voter wants to do both, then it is not clear what rating to give to the candidate BCDE.

      This is a problem and it is not me who has to prove that in practice it does not show up (and possibly that it will not show up in subsequent elections).
      However, I am collecting data on votes with ranges and what I notice for now is that it comes up quite often as a problem (at least, in online single winner polls). When I have enough data I will post about it.
      I tell you that it also happens that some voters never give the score 0.

      I have only stated that the S-TM is extremely resistant to a similar problem due to how the results are calculated (as well as the methods that use rank with one candidate per position).
      I have made other small statements (even subjective), but the core of the speech does not change.

      posted in New Voting Methods and Variations
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      Essenzia
    • RE: S-TM

      @Jack-Waugh
      Yes, but it seems to me that they often just observe who the 2 frontrunners are and then give max (5) to the best of 2, and min (0) to the worst.

      More generally, the min-max problem for range methods is quite recognized as such, and it is the reason why maybe someone prefers a ranking with a single candidate for each position (because in that, you certainly can't min-max) .

      If I want to maximize A (loved candidate), I vote:
      A [5] BCDEF [0]
      If I want to minimize F (hated candidate), I vote:
      ABCDE [5] F [0]
      If the voter wants to do both, then he won't know what scores to give BCDE candidates. The fact that I have to use result predictions to decide what scores to give BCDE candidates seems very wrong to me.

      S-TM tries to solve this problem with [worst] and [best] ratings which allow to maximize/minimize candidates A/F without imposing conditions on B, C, D, E for which the voter will be much more encouraged to give honest (intermediate) evaluations.

      posted in New Voting Methods and Variations
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      Essenzia
    • RE: S-TM

      @Jack-Waugh
      "Work better" in what sense?

      If this is my honest vote in SV:
      A [5] B [4] C [3] D [2] E [1] F [0]
      and I want to maximize A and B's chances of winning (to the detriment of the others), then my vote will tend to go like this:
      min: A [5] B [5] C [0] D [0] E [0] F [0]
      If, on the other hand, I want to make sure as much as possible that E and F lose, then my vote will tend towards this:
      max: A [5] B [5] C [5] D [5] E [0] F [0]

      In methods such as STAR, on the other hand, it may make sense to also assign a rating of 1 (intermediate) to compromise candidates.
      Better than SV, but the min-max problem is still there, also because the first step makes the two candidates win with the higher sum, so it's like SV (in fact, with clones, STAR becomes SV).

      In S-TM (with tie procedure 1) maximizing makes no sense, while minimizing makes no sense except in the case of tie (very rarely).

      posted in New Voting Methods and Variations
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      Essenzia
    • RE: S-TM

      @Jack-Waugh
      Exactly like that.

      I hypothesize that if a voter assigns [best] to a candidate, then he would definitely want the opponent to be at 0 points (respectively, if he assigns [worst] he wants the opponent to be at 5).
      If he uses intermediate scores instead, he can agree to leave them as they are.

      An STLR-style normalization could be done on the intermediate scores, eg: [1,2] becomes [2.5,5] but I think it would complicate the procedure too much.

      posted in New Voting Methods and Variations
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      Essenzia
    • RE: S-TM

      @Jack-Waugh
      Considering 2 candidates, the points they receive in the various votes are added and the one with the highest sum wins.
      The [worst] and [best] ratings have special rules that describe how to treat them in the sum.

      The candidate with the most wins in pairwise match wins (all pairwise matches are made).

      posted in New Voting Methods and Variations
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      Essenzia